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arthur_d

External


Since: Dec 14, 2008
Posts: 4



(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:07 am
Post subject: Heavy performace slowdown after migrating from SQL Server 2005 to
Archived from groups: microsoft>public>sqlserver>fulltext (more info?)

Hi,

after migrating from SQL Server 2005 to SQL Server 2008 I was faced with a
brainteaser that led to a lot of discussions in my team.

Let me sketch the problem:
There is a large database with a varchar(1000) column – say 20 millions
rows. I want to do a fulltext search for ‘“abc”’ in that column. Both, SQL
Server 2005 and SQL Server 2008 do a well job in that case – even if SQL
Server 2005 seems to work a little bit faster but that’s not the point.
Now the situation changes dramatically if I start to search for ‘“abc” AND
NOT “d*”’. If I look into the produced query plan SQL Server 2008 does the
following concurrently:
- Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id containing “abc”
- Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id NOT containing a word
starting with “d”

The first query runs fast since it’s rather a lookup producing a relatively
small resultset. The second query runs very slow and produces a very large
resultset that gets shrinked not until a merge join between both results
leading again to a small result set. So this is a bad query plan since doing
the second query (“d*”) just on the small result set from the first query
would have been more appropriate.
The whole query takes about 10 times longer than the same query in SQL
Server 2005.

It seems that you don’t have any possibility to instruct SQL Server 2008 to
work with other query plans or to speed it up in another way.

Has anyone experienced similar problems with SQL Server 2008 or could even
help?


Thank you very much for your help &
Kind Regards,

Martin

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Hilary Cotter

External


Since: Jan 16, 2008
Posts: 143



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 8:45 am
Post subject: RE: Heavy performace slowdown after migrating from SQL Server 2005 to [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

You can't expect fast response for large results sets.

Using Scowl (assuming you have the same distribution or words as they do), I
see that words beginning with the letter d occur 5% of the time. Assuming a
single work in your varchar(1000) columns this means that I can expect about
1 million rows to have words starting with the letter d. This is a lot of
words to have to gather up and filter through.

If this is really a business requirement I think that an inverted file index
is a better fit for something like this. At least to filter out the d*.





"arthur_d" wrote:

> Hi,
>
> after migrating from SQL Server 2005 to SQL Server 2008 I was faced with a
> brainteaser that led to a lot of discussions in my team.
>
> Let me sketch the problem:
> There is a large database with a varchar(1000) column – say 20 millions
> rows. I want to do a fulltext search for ‘“abc”’ in that column. Both, SQL
> Server 2005 and SQL Server 2008 do a well job in that case – even if SQL
> Server 2005 seems to work a little bit faster but that’s not the point.
> Now the situation changes dramatically if I start to search for ‘“abc” AND
> NOT “d*”’. If I look into the produced query plan SQL Server 2008 does the
> following concurrently:
> - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id containing “abc”
> - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id NOT containing a word
> starting with “d”
>
> The first query runs fast since it’s rather a lookup producing a relatively
> small resultset. The second query runs very slow and produces a very large
> resultset that gets shrinked not until a merge join between both results
> leading again to a small result set. So this is a bad query plan since doing
> the second query (“d*”) just on the small result set from the first query
> would have been more appropriate.
> The whole query takes about 10 times longer than the same query in SQL
> Server 2005.
>
> It seems that you don’t have any possibility to instruct SQL Server 2008 to
> work with other query plans or to speed it up in another way.
>
> Has anyone experienced similar problems with SQL Server 2008 or could even
> help?
>
>
> Thank you very much for your help &
> Kind Regards,
>
> Martin

 >> Stay informed about: Heavy performace slowdown after migrating from SQL Server .. 
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arthur_d

External


Since: Dec 14, 2008
Posts: 4



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:59 am
Post subject: RE: Heavy performance slowdown after migrating from SQL Server 2005 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Thanks for your reply.

The remaining question is why SQL Server 2005 is performing the same query
in just a fraction of that time that SQL Server 2008 needs. If it is rather a
structural problem it should be slow regardless of version.


"Hilary Cotter" wrote:

> You can't expect fast response for large results sets.
>
> Using Scowl (assuming you have the same distribution or words as they do), I
> see that words beginning with the letter d occur 5% of the time. Assuming a
> single work in your varchar(1000) columns this means that I can expect about
> 1 million rows to have words starting with the letter d. This is a lot of
> words to have to gather up and filter through.
>
> If this is really a business requirement I think that an inverted file index
> is a better fit for something like this. At least to filter out the d*.
>
>
>
>
>
> "arthur_d" wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > after migrating from SQL Server 2005 to SQL Server 2008 I was faced with a
> > brainteaser that led to a lot of discussions in my team.
> >
> > Let me sketch the problem:
> > There is a large database with a varchar(1000) column – say 20 millions
> > rows. I want to do a fulltext search for ‘“abc”’ in that column. Both, SQL
> > Server 2005 and SQL Server 2008 do a well job in that case – even if SQL
> > Server 2005 seems to work a little bit faster but that’s not the point.
> > Now the situation changes dramatically if I start to search for ‘“abc” AND
> > NOT “d*”’. If I look into the produced query plan SQL Server 2008 does the
> > following concurrently:
> > - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id containing “abc”
> > - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id NOT containing a word
> > starting with “d”
> >
> > The first query runs fast since it’s rather a lookup producing a relatively
> > small resultset. The second query runs very slow and produces a very large
> > resultset that gets shrinked not until a merge join between both results
> > leading again to a small result set. So this is a bad query plan since doing
> > the second query (“d*”) just on the small result set from the first query
> > would have been more appropriate.
> > The whole query takes about 10 times longer than the same query in SQL
> > Server 2005.
> >
> > It seems that you don’t have any possibility to instruct SQL Server 2008 to
> > work with other query plans or to speed it up in another way.
> >
> > Has anyone experienced similar problems with SQL Server 2008 or could even
> > help?
> >
> >
> > Thank you very much for your help &
> > Kind Regards,
> >
> > Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy performace slowdown after migrating from SQL Server .. 
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Hilary Cotter

External


Since: Jan 16, 2008
Posts: 143



(Msg. 4) Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:09 am
Post subject: RE: Heavy performance slowdown after migrating from SQL Server 200 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Its a different algorithm in 2008 as I am sure you know:)

While the new algorithm works best for most use cases in SQL 2008 you seem
to have stumbled open a poor case.

Could you post the execution plans?

"arthur_d" wrote:

> Thanks for your reply.
>
> The remaining question is why SQL Server 2005 is performing the same query
> in just a fraction of that time that SQL Server 2008 needs. If it is rather a
> structural problem it should be slow regardless of version.
>
>
> "Hilary Cotter" wrote:
>
> > You can't expect fast response for large results sets.
> >
> > Using Scowl (assuming you have the same distribution or words as they do), I
> > see that words beginning with the letter d occur 5% of the time. Assuming a
> > single work in your varchar(1000) columns this means that I can expect about
> > 1 million rows to have words starting with the letter d. This is a lot of
> > words to have to gather up and filter through.
> >
> > If this is really a business requirement I think that an inverted file index
> > is a better fit for something like this. At least to filter out the d*.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "arthur_d" wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > after migrating from SQL Server 2005 to SQL Server 2008 I was faced with a
> > > brainteaser that led to a lot of discussions in my team.
> > >
> > > Let me sketch the problem:
> > > There is a large database with a varchar(1000) column – say 20 millions
> > > rows. I want to do a fulltext search for ‘“abc”’ in that column. Both, SQL
> > > Server 2005 and SQL Server 2008 do a well job in that case – even if SQL
> > > Server 2005 seems to work a little bit faster but that’s not the point.
> > > Now the situation changes dramatically if I start to search for ‘“abc” AND
> > > NOT “d*”’. If I look into the produced query plan SQL Server 2008 does the
> > > following concurrently:
> > > - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id containing “abc”
> > > - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id NOT containing a word
> > > starting with “d”
> > >
> > > The first query runs fast since it’s rather a lookup producing a relatively
> > > small resultset. The second query runs very slow and produces a very large
> > > resultset that gets shrinked not until a merge join between both results
> > > leading again to a small result set. So this is a bad query plan since doing
> > > the second query (“d*”) just on the small result set from the first query
> > > would have been more appropriate.
> > > The whole query takes about 10 times longer than the same query in SQL
> > > Server 2005.
> > >
> > > It seems that you don’t have any possibility to instruct SQL Server 2008 to
> > > work with other query plans or to speed it up in another way.
> > >
> > > Has anyone experienced similar problems with SQL Server 2008 or could even
> > > help?
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you very much for your help &
> > > Kind Regards,
> > >
> > > Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy performace slowdown after migrating from SQL Server .. 
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arthur_d

External


Since: Dec 14, 2008
Posts: 4



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:19 am
Post subject: RE: Heavy performance slowdown after migrating from SQL Server 200 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

I guess you're right Smile

What I'm, really wondering about is, why SQL Server 2008 queries every part
as it was a single query on its own without any linkage. I would have assumed
that the query plan optimizer would have produced a query plan first querying
for "abc" and then look into that result set for every item not containing
"d*". particularly as the fulltext is now part of the relational database so
that the approved query plan optimization could be used.

Maybe I should just wait for further versions.

"Hilary Cotter" wrote:

> Its a different algorithm in 2008 as I am sure you know:)
>
> While the new algorithm works best for most use cases in SQL 2008 you seem
> to have stumbled open a poor case.
>
> Could you post the execution plans?
>
> "arthur_d" wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your reply.
> >
> > The remaining question is why SQL Server 2005 is performing the same query
> > in just a fraction of that time that SQL Server 2008 needs. If it is rather a
> > structural problem it should be slow regardless of version.
> >
> >
> > "Hilary Cotter" wrote:
> >
> > > You can't expect fast response for large results sets.
> > >
> > > Using Scowl (assuming you have the same distribution or words as they do), I
> > > see that words beginning with the letter d occur 5% of the time. Assuming a
> > > single work in your varchar(1000) columns this means that I can expect about
> > > 1 million rows to have words starting with the letter d. This is a lot of
> > > words to have to gather up and filter through.
> > >
> > > If this is really a business requirement I think that an inverted file index
> > > is a better fit for something like this. At least to filter out the d*.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "arthur_d" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > after migrating from SQL Server 2005 to SQL Server 2008 I was faced with a
> > > > brainteaser that led to a lot of discussions in my team.
> > > >
> > > > Let me sketch the problem:
> > > > There is a large database with a varchar(1000) column – say 20 millions
> > > > rows. I want to do a fulltext search for ‘“abc”’ in that column. Both, SQL
> > > > Server 2005 and SQL Server 2008 do a well job in that case – even if SQL
> > > > Server 2005 seems to work a little bit faster but that’s not the point.
> > > > Now the situation changes dramatically if I start to search for ‘“abc” AND
> > > > NOT “d*”’. If I look into the produced query plan SQL Server 2008 does the
> > > > following concurrently:
> > > > - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id containing “abc”
> > > > - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id NOT containing a word
> > > > starting with “d”
> > > >
> > > > The first query runs fast since it’s rather a lookup producing a relatively
> > > > small resultset. The second query runs very slow and produces a very large
> > > > resultset that gets shrinked not until a merge join between both results
> > > > leading again to a small result set. So this is a bad query plan since doing
> > > > the second query (“d*”) just on the small result set from the first query
> > > > would have been more appropriate.
> > > > The whole query takes about 10 times longer than the same query in SQL
> > > > Server 2005.
> > > >
> > > > It seems that you don’t have any possibility to instruct SQL Server 2008 to
> > > > work with other query plans or to speed it up in another way.
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone experienced similar problems with SQL Server 2008 or could even
> > > > help?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you very much for your help &
> > > > Kind Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Martin
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy performace slowdown after migrating from SQL Server .. 
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Simon Sabin

External


Since: Mar 01, 2007
Posts: 15



(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:25 pm
Post subject: RE: Heavy performance slowdown after migrating from SQL Server 200 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Hello arthur_d,

Can you post your actual query, are you using contains, containstable, Are
you doing it in one predicate or two.

i.e. CONTAINSTABLE (tab,*,"abc AND NOT "d*") or
CONTAINS(tab,*,'abc') AND NOT contains(tab,*,'"d*"')

Do you have an integer primry key?
Have you imported or rebuilt your indexes? This will make a huge difference
to performance.



Simon Sabin
SQL Server MVP
http://sqlblogcasts.com/blogs/simons


> I guess you're right Smile
>
> What I'm, really wondering about is, why SQL Server 2008 queries every
> part as it was a single query on its own without any linkage. I would
> have assumed that the query plan optimizer would have produced a query
> plan first querying for "abc" and then look into that result set for
> every item not containing "d*". particularly as the fulltext is now
> part of the relational database so that the approved query plan
> optimization could be used.
>
> Maybe I should just wait for further versions.
>
> "Hilary Cotter" wrote:
>
>> Its a different algorithm in 2008 as I am sure you know:)
>>
>> While the new algorithm works best for most use cases in SQL 2008 you
>> seem to have stumbled open a poor case.
>>
>> Could you post the execution plans?
>>
>> "arthur_d" wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for your reply.
>>>
>>> The remaining question is why SQL Server 2005 is performing the same
>>> query in just a fraction of that time that SQL Server 2008 needs. If
>>> it is rather a structural problem it should be slow regardless of
>>> version.
>>>
>>> "Hilary Cotter" wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can't expect fast response for large results sets.
>>>>
>>>> Using Scowl (assuming you have the same distribution or words as
>>>> they do), I see that words beginning with the letter d occur 5% of
>>>> the time. Assuming a single work in your varchar(1000) columns this
>>>> means that I can expect about 1 million rows to have words starting
>>>> with the letter d. This is a lot of words to have to gather up and
>>>> filter through.
>>>>
>>>> If this is really a business requirement I think that an inverted
>>>> file index is a better fit for something like this. At least to
>>>> filter out the d*.
>>>>
>>>> "arthur_d" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> after migrating from SQL Server 2005 to SQL Server 2008 I was
>>>>> faced with a brainteaser that led to a lot of discussions in my
>>>>> team.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me sketch the problem:
>>>>> There is a large database with a varchar(1000) column - say 20
>>>>> millions
>>>>> rows. I want to do a fulltext search for '"abc"' in that column.
>>>>> Both, SQL
>>>>> Server 2005 and SQL Server 2008 do a well job in that case - even
>>>>> if SQL
>>>>> Server 2005 seems to work a little bit faster but that's not the
>>>>> point.
>>>>> Now the situation changes dramatically if I start to search for
>>>>> '"abc" AND
>>>>> NOT "d*"'. If I look into the produced query plan SQL Server 2008
>>>>> does the
>>>>> following concurrently:
>>>>> - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id containing "abc"
>>>>> - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id NOT containing a
>>>>> word
>>>>> starting with "d"
>>>>> The first query runs fast since it's rather a lookup producing a
>>>>> relatively
>>>>> small resultset. The second query runs very slow and produces a
>>>>> very large
>>>>> resultset that gets shrinked not until a merge join between both
>>>>> results
>>>>> leading again to a small result set. So this is a bad query plan
>>>>> since doing
>>>>> the second query ("d*") just on the small result set from the
>>>>> first query
>>>>> would have been more appropriate.
>>>>> The whole query takes about 10 times longer than the same query in
>>>>> SQL
>>>>> Server 2005.
>>>>> It seems that you don't have any possibility to instruct SQL
>>>>> Server 2008 to work with other query plans or to speed it up in
>>>>> another way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone experienced similar problems with SQL Server 2008 or
>>>>> could even help?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you very much for your help &
>>>>> Kind Regards,
>>>>> Martin
>>>>>
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy performace slowdown after migrating from SQL Server .. 
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arthur_d

External


Since: Dec 14, 2008
Posts: 4



(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2008 6:58 am
Post subject: RE: Heavy performance slowdown after migrating from SQL Server 200 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Hi Simon,

the initial query was:

SELECT [KEY] FROM containstable(tblData, DataField, '"abc" AND NOT "d*"')

This query takes 10 seconds, the resultset contains 1800 rows (approx.).

The following query takes less than a second, retrieving 3500 rows (approx.).
SELECT [KEY] FROM containstable(tblData, DataField, '"abc"')

Working with contains and splitting the condition does not seem to speed
things up:

SELECT DataID FROM tblData WHERE CONTAINS(DataField, '"abc"') AND NOT
CONTAINS(DataField, '"d*"')

This query takes 10 seconds.

The query plan for the initial query looks like this (in chronological order):

1. Two Table Valued Functions ("abc" / "NOT d*"). One function approximately
contributing 3.500 rows ('"ABC"') and one contributing 4.000.000 rows ('NOT
"d*"') (0%/46%)

2. Stream Aggregate on each of the results (0%/21%)

3. Merge Join combining both (33%)

4. Stream Aggregate (0%)

5. SELECT (0%)

tblData has a primary key (DataID). The index was build from scratch on SQL
Server 2008 - we only imported the underlying data from SQL Server 2005.

Thank you very much for your help,

Martin

"Simon Sabin" wrote:

> Hello arthur_d,
>
> Can you post your actual query, are you using contains, containstable, Are
> you doing it in one predicate or two.
>
> i.e. CONTAINSTABLE (tab,*,"abc AND NOT "d*") or
> CONTAINS(tab,*,'abc') AND NOT contains(tab,*,'"d*"')
>
> Do you have an integer primry key?
> Have you imported or rebuilt your indexes? This will make a huge difference
> to performance.
>
>
>
> Simon Sabin
> SQL Server MVP
> http://sqlblogcasts.com/blogs/simons
>
>
> > I guess you're right Smile
> >
> > What I'm, really wondering about is, why SQL Server 2008 queries every
> > part as it was a single query on its own without any linkage. I would
> > have assumed that the query plan optimizer would have produced a query
> > plan first querying for "abc" and then look into that result set for
> > every item not containing "d*". particularly as the fulltext is now
> > part of the relational database so that the approved query plan
> > optimization could be used.
> >
> > Maybe I should just wait for further versions.
> >
> > "Hilary Cotter" wrote:
> >
> >> Its a different algorithm in 2008 as I am sure you know:)
> >>
> >> While the new algorithm works best for most use cases in SQL 2008 you
> >> seem to have stumbled open a poor case.
> >>
> >> Could you post the execution plans?
> >>
> >> "arthur_d" wrote:
> >>
> >>> Thanks for your reply.
> >>>
> >>> The remaining question is why SQL Server 2005 is performing the same
> >>> query in just a fraction of that time that SQL Server 2008 needs. If
> >>> it is rather a structural problem it should be slow regardless of
> >>> version.
> >>>
> >>> "Hilary Cotter" wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> You can't expect fast response for large results sets.
> >>>>
> >>>> Using Scowl (assuming you have the same distribution or words as
> >>>> they do), I see that words beginning with the letter d occur 5% of
> >>>> the time. Assuming a single work in your varchar(1000) columns this
> >>>> means that I can expect about 1 million rows to have words starting
> >>>> with the letter d. This is a lot of words to have to gather up and
> >>>> filter through.
> >>>>
> >>>> If this is really a business requirement I think that an inverted
> >>>> file index is a better fit for something like this. At least to
> >>>> filter out the d*.
> >>>>
> >>>> "arthur_d" wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> after migrating from SQL Server 2005 to SQL Server 2008 I was
> >>>>> faced with a brainteaser that led to a lot of discussions in my
> >>>>> team.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Let me sketch the problem:
> >>>>> There is a large database with a varchar(1000) column - say 20
> >>>>> millions
> >>>>> rows. I want to do a fulltext search for '"abc"' in that column.
> >>>>> Both, SQL
> >>>>> Server 2005 and SQL Server 2008 do a well job in that case - even
> >>>>> if SQL
> >>>>> Server 2005 seems to work a little bit faster but that's not the
> >>>>> point.
> >>>>> Now the situation changes dramatically if I start to search for
> >>>>> '"abc" AND
> >>>>> NOT "d*"'. If I look into the produced query plan SQL Server 2008
> >>>>> does the
> >>>>> following concurrently:
> >>>>> - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id containing "abc"
> >>>>> - Querying the fulltext for every row/document_id NOT containing a
> >>>>> word
> >>>>> starting with "d"
> >>>>> The first query runs fast since it's rather a lookup producing a
> >>>>> relatively
> >>>>> small resultset. The second query runs very slow and produces a
> >>>>> very large
> >>>>> resultset that gets shrinked not until a merge join between both
> >>>>> results
> >>>>> leading again to a small result set. So this is a bad query plan
> >>>>> since doing
> >>>>> the second query ("d*") just on the small result set from the
> >>>>> first query
> >>>>> would have been more appropriate.
> >>>>> The whole query takes about 10 times longer than the same query in
> >>>>> SQL
> >>>>> Server 2005.
> >>>>> It seems that you don't have any possibility to instruct SQL
> >>>>> Server 2008 to work with other query plans or to speed it up in
> >>>>> another way.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Has anyone experienced similar problems with SQL Server 2008 or
> >>>>> could even help?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thank you very much for your help &
> >>>>> Kind Regards,
> >>>>> Martin
> >>>>>
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy performace slowdown after migrating from SQL Server .. 
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